Interview length: 13:28 minutes
Interviewer: Solange
Interviewee: Benjamin Antman
Moderator: Cihad

Transcription

Solange: Again, I'm just gonna pretend that I don't know you and know nothing about your work. Just a

little.

Solange: And I wanna ask you if you can mak a short general description about what your work is about

Benjamin: Yeah it's been, eh, it's-it's been uh it's been difficult -eh- I think to define what I do -eh-,

personally as well

Benjamin: -eh- but I would- I would say that it's tied to my first -uh- introduction to -uh- societies of

control, for example - post script on societies of control...-uh- and it started out as -uh- ... I was

interested in it because it first tied to -uhmm- actually Lefebvres theory of social space -eeuuh- about

how Lefebvre kind of, like, put up a structure of how we conduct ourselves in space; socially, and also

how space becomes what it is according to how we interpret it socially, like, together. We converse. -

uh- So that was, kind of like, the first kinda queue to -uh- like societies of control. And that our space is

controlled by these three social spaces. -uh- that's kind of like what I got from postscript on societies of

control and on Lefebvre's social space -that he created structure and in this kind of like same (tenant?)

-uh- Ledeuze said that we're defining -we're defining our society according to kind of this paradigm of

control- of controlling the space -of making it more livable in a sense by extending the control...-uuh-

So- that would -that would be interesting -I didn't -uh- because I think in Images. I w- I was hard pressed

to, like, find a visual metaphor for it -and -uh- I was- that's kind of like where I got the idea to -uh- the

metaphor, the visual metaphor for a mushroom.-uh- because -eh- specifically mycellium. -uh- Because

what it does is it's like the extensions of (enclosures) spaces -uh- it kind of extends space as -uh- It has

a certain -kind of like- it- it- it keeps -keeps its organism inside itself or it keeps its life inside it's cell

walls- but it grows out nonetheless. -ah- and it's highly -this mycelium -mycellic pattern is highly complex

as well so you have this kind of -like- -uh- you have this kind of analogy between -uh- spaces of control,

or extension of spaces -of control. And all of- and these kind of cell-walls, or these mycelium,-uh- kind

of, coercing -connecting with each other according to how -uh- how it survives -so that's also about

where I was interested in -eh- this societies of control because these structures -I believe- are a sign of

survival. We want to- we have the ability to expand like a web of mycelium and therefore -uh- in order to

survive this kind of like expansion we need to connect to each other.

Solange: Kay, let's go back (HAHAHA) UUUHMM- so societies of control, that's kind of your base-

your theory base-

Benjamin: Yes.

Solange: that you really are inspired by- UMMM- what is a social space for you, then?

Benjamin: UH- well social space I'd say is a -uh- you can say... is a kind of preee- pre-uh- what do you

call it -uh- ancestor to -uh- to Deleuze's postscripts on spaces of control -uh- what he did was- was he

-uh- what Lefebvre did was he had a -he had a pretty positive approach to it- he wanted to kind of make

us aware of it -uh- in order for us to be able to -uuuh- to -to -uuh- -uh- to control our space- that's what

situationists did as well. They were trying to make injections into space in order to- for us to better

control it instead of the spectacle controlling it. -uuuhm- and so what- what did -what it did here is- I think

that our understanding of social space has- has kind of like -it's been part of our culture since the 1950's

and what it has done is that this theory -has g-has gone into -uh- societies of control where we are

aware of the spaces- we are aware what they do but we're still inside this structure.

Solange: In a system.

Benjamin: Yeah- exactly. In a system.

Solange: Yeah.

Benjamin: -uh- so it's the basis- the social space is a basis on uh- Deleuze's postscripts on societies of

control.

Steve: Can you ask "What is the work?"

Solange: We're gon- We're gonna get there (laugh)

Steve: What is the work.

Solange: Now, actually -ok we know your inspiration -I think- and your basis- where you're coming

from. -uh- And even where your concept comes from -and normally you work alot with images and

drawings -aah- now you're gonna do something else with mushrooms. How do- how did you change

that- how did you come at the mushrooms actually.

Benjamin: -uh- I basically started from my style, my drawing style -for example- because it has a very

organic -uh- approach to it. It- it- kind of fits well into -kind of like- describing these visual metaphores -

uh- of an expanding mycellic society of electronic networks. -uh- So myk- mycellic networks being

electronic networks which i'm trying to make an analogy between-

Benjamin: uh- sorry what was the question? I'm sorry. (chuckle)

Solange: No, uh- how do- how did you came up with mushrooms? Because you're-

Benjamin: Oh yeah.

Solange: Because you went from drawings and images to something very organic- that's something

physical- uhmm how did you want to develop this.

Benjamin: Well- it was -it was first taken from my childhood where -uh- we had this kind of like bonding

over mushrooms -uh- my mother and I were picking mushrooms and w- she was teaching me- so we

were kind of connecting over mushrooms. And then when I looked into mycellic networks I was

interested in that these mycellic networks also connect with each other, individually. Things- so going

back to my drawing style. (chuckle)

Solange: (chuckle) Yeah.

Benjamin: What I do with my drawing style is I make random shapes -like- connect them- so uhmm- I

w- I was- interested- that was kind of -like- my approach- that's kind of like where I got the idea- my

drawing style is kind of like -uh- mycellic networks- it goes from -or network -it goes from individual

nodes and then I expand upon it-

Solange: Mhm.

Benjamin: -and they're made into a shape.
Solange: Okey, I see the relation. UHMM- (laugh) Well when we talk about -uh- society of control is

actually something organic- not really controlling, so how do you see that. Because a mushroom is not-

you can't control'em- they are just -I mean your drawings are really -you really can control your drawings

-it's not really random I think. You really have to place your pencil or your brush and with the mushroom

it's -it's hard because i- n- it's just so organic and it's nature -do you have control on that?

Benjamin: That's a really long question.

Solange: (laugh)

Benjamin: Uuuh- but -eh just seeing - I kind of -like- see it as an overview of society, I'm not talking

about-uh-

Solange: So the mushrooms are the society more.

Benjamin: Mushrooms are the society, exactly. And, though, what we are talking about for example with

our species expanding beyond sustainable ecology is the same thing a, for example, uh- these huge- ok

you have in Scotland you have- you have uh- a mycellic mushroom which is expanding across

twenty.thousand acres- it's one organism; and it's -it's killing all of the nature in ordr to -kind of like-

make way for its own biome -uh-

Solange: They're surviving.

Benjamin: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Solange: Like it says, we're surviving actually in the society.

Solange: Where- where does the controlling part comes in.

Benjamin: Well- the controlling part is more about the containing of the organism- so it- it's about

containing the process of its development. And it's also about this kind- kind of like containment of our

society which is growing kinda beyond its -uh beyond its kinda like- breaching the walls of what we were

originally trying to do. And -what control does -what control society -why the control society has

manifested is between -because we need to kind of like keep together ...-uh- otherwise we will just -uh-

die -die out. So it's kind of like this -this main th- main mentality of society that's also a- also what I saw

with Bruno Latour as well. Nah I don't remember (chuckle)- sorry. Yeah.

Solange: (chuckle) Okey, well that's more clear now - what you mean and the connection with the text

and theory which you made with the work -UHM- so you really want to work with the mushrooms? Do

already have a kind of image in your head how it looks -looks like? Or- I mean how do you want to

present it? Uh- how do you want to present it to an audience? How do you gonna do that?

Benjamin: Yeah. I don't really- I don't really have a set kind of image of -that's what I'm struggling with

right now. With- with trying tooo -uuh- find a form for -for example using distributed networks for

example. I could for example use distributed networks. -UH- network computing for kind of like doing

the metaphor for one central computer needs something from all these computers in order to work. -

euh- so that's kind of like -uh- about -going back to -now we're going back to electronic networks and

of course the artifacts(10:55) -eh- as well.

Solange: Yeah.

Benjamin: Emm- and that's kind of like what I find interesting as well -like- eh, we need to be together like in a society we need to be together in order for society to work.

Solange:-work

Benjamin: Exactly

Solange: -yeah

Benjamin: So if we're going for example with electronic networks we- in distributed computing we need all of these computers in order for this simulation to work. And -uh-yeah, it's it's this kind of like civilisation of technology as well through distributed computing- that we're making our computers into -eh- into our- into the model of our society- through distributed- or cloud computing for example

Solange: (ok)

Benjamin: Yeah.

Solange: Uhmm- going back to the question from Steve - what is the work?

Benjamin: What is the work?

Solange: What is the work.

Benjamin: Yeah- what is the work-eh- currently I'm -i'm looking into- I've made some sketches as well which kind of incorporate my organic style -eh- on -eh- on on on mushroom-like structures- on monumental mushroom-like structures -ehmm- but I don't know yet. It's- it's- it's really- it's really -eh something I'll need to work on until the re-assessments.

Solange: Because you're so clear about what it has to be or what's it about- whats does it looks like?

Benjamin: Mmm-

Solange: Is still pretty hard actually

Benjamin: Yes- definitely

Solange: It will- it will come

Benjamin:Yeah

Solange: Of course (laugh) ehmm but searching the right medium is maybe the- the hardest research almost.

Benjamin: Yeah definitely.

Solange: Yeah.

Benjamin: Because it needs to be something which spans- like- which has the same kind of like- not necessarily theoretical build up but euh technical buildup. The theory behind this should be the same-

Solange: I know

Benjamin: ah- what I perceive society to be. -or we perceive society to be.

Solange: What do you want to say to your audience? With the work. Do you already have a kind of idea- because it's very broad- sorry but it's alot and you can't say all the things you want to the audience, of course, so

Benjamin: I know

Benjamin: And -eh- that's- that's also a problem of my- I- I need to simplify.

Solange: Yeah, focus (laugh)

Benjamin: Focus exactly! (laugh)

Solange: But then also you'll bump into the medium- I think.

Benjamin: Yeah. It's just that I haven't found it yet. But- yeah

Solange: Yeah- I think we can- end with that. All right.

Edited Transcription 2015-04-29

Solange: Again, I'm just gonna pretend that I don't know you and know nothing about your work. Just a little.

Solange: And I wanna ask you if you can mak a short general description about what your work is about

Benjamin: I would say that my general description of the project is tied to my first introduction to societies of control with Deleuze's "Postscript on Societies of Control". Its concept of a structured space tied to Lefebvres thoughts on social- or ideological space. Lefebvre put up a structure of how we conduct ourselves according to how we use, experience and think on space; how space becomes what it is according to how we interpret it according to a larger social agreement on what space is. Our space is controlled by these three social spaces, the structure and control of spaces is how I tied together Lefebvre an Deleuze. We're defining our society according to the hegemony of control, and structured space as a construct of a collective wish to control space -of making it more livable for us by extending the control of our social spaces. I think in Images, and I wanted to visualize this divide in control and structure of space. I have been hard pressed to find a visual metaphor which could tie these concepts into a concrete object. The visual metaphor for a mushroom, specifically mycellium, the tissues of the mushroom I thought were a decent approach. What mushrooms do is their extending their minds, literally, by spreading through space. As we started externalizing our minds through the web we grew too, and our minds - now hybrid organic/tech - started imposing themselves more and more on our environment. We extended our enclosures to make more room for a contained network of our species.

The mycelilum expands its network in order to better sustain itself in its environment, and by expanding it becomes its environment. Its an analogy you could draw with our own expansion; as we expand we have become the environment, and in order to sustain ourselves we need to mitigate our effects on the environment we've created.Like our networked society we develop from simple constructs, like the telegraph, into more and more complex webs of communication, like the internet and the computer. Spaces of control coerce and connect with each other, or distance themselves from each other in order to better control itself and its environment.In order to survive in our complex social environment, analogous to mycellium's process of choosing where/how to connect to reach an optimum result [1].

Solange: So societies of control is your theory base.

Benjamin: Yes.

Solange: What is a social space for you?

Benjamin: Social space I'd say is a ancestor to Deleuze's postscripts on societies of control. What he did was he wanted to make us aware of our ideological perception of space in order for us to be able to control our space. What the situationists did was that hey were trying to make injections into space in order to highlight the current mode of control, of the spectacle, and so we would be more aware of who was controlling us. I think that our understanding of social space has been part of our culture since the 1950's and what has happened is that this theory been absorbed by society at large, both at the top and the bottom. The fact that we know better of our enclosures now means that we are aware what is being done but we're still inside this structure, we don't often react as we are part of the large organism that is our networked society.

Solange: In a system.

Benjamin: The social space is a basis on uh- Deleuze's postscripts on societies of control.

Solange: We know your inspiration and your basis; even where your concept comes from. Normally you work alot with images and drawings and now you're gonna do something else with mushrooms. How did you come at the mushrooms actually?

Benjamin: I basically started from my drawing style because it has already very organic expression, and I believe it expresses my opinions on society better, as sort of a atomic snapshot of society. I believe it could fit well in describing these metaphores - from my own perspective: the analogy between mycellium and control society.

Solange: You went from drawings and images to something very organic, something physical. How did you want to develop this?

Benjamin: What I do with my drawing style is I make random shapes and connect them. I was interested in how this growing and connecting of my drawings could show how society connects and grows. My drawing style is controlled by my neural network, connected to my hand; a neural network which is the internal network of mycellium, as mycellium is in fact a brain as well as a collection of other organs.

Solange: When we talk about -uh- society of control is actually something organic- not really controlling, so how do you see that? Because you can't control mushrooms. You really can control your drawings -it's not really random I think. You really have to place your pencil or your brush- and with the mushroom it's just so organic and it's nature -do you have control on that?

Benjamin: That's a really long question.

Benjamin: I see the mushrooms more as an overview of society. My process is controlled, to a degree, but so is nature also shown to be. If it wouldn't have any control it would destroy itself, just like we're always under the threat of destroying ourselves.

Solange: So the mushrooms are the society more.

Benjamin: Our species is expanding beyond a sustainable ecology, and when a mushroom does that it begins to rot. You can see it in roman society, it collapsed because its expansion, whether it was trade, ideology or invasions, made it rot. Rotting has also been used as a great analogy for the downfall, or deterioration of societies. Yet again, somehow we have this huge thousand acres fungi colony in Scotland, consisting of one organism's clones. It sustains itself by expanding, but it's killing everything around it by doing so.

Solange: Like it says, we're surviving actually in the society.
Solange: Where- where does the controlling part comes in.

Benjamin: We're not only surviving in society, as singular organisms in a huge web of communication lines; but our society, as a large distributed organism, survives on the planet. And in order to survive we need to contain and control the forces, outside and inside, which are trying to tear it apart. Why the control society has manifested is because we need to keep together, otherwise we will die out.

Solange: So you really want to work with the mushrooms? Do you already have a kind of image in your head how it looks like? How do you want to

present it? How do you want to present it to an audience?

Benjamin: I don't really have a set kind of image of it that's what I'm struggling with right now, with finding inspiration. I'm trying to find a form for this large distributed organism-idea. I could for example use distributed networks where one central computer needs something from all these computers in order to work.

Benjamin: So if we're going with electronic networks we need all of these computers in order for our current society to work. We're making our computers into the model of our society, and through our interaction with the computers we become more accostumed to behaving through computers.

Solange: Going back to the question from Steve - what is the work?

Benjamin: Currently I'm looking into sketching which could incorporate my organic style of mushroom-like structures which speak to us about who we are and what we are together. I don't know about the form yet. It's something I'll need to work on until the re-assessments.

Solange: Because you're so clear about what it has to be or what's it about- whats does it looks like?

Benjamin: Mmm-

Solange: Is still pretty hard actually

Solange: It will- it will come

Solange: Searching the right medium is perhaps the hardest research.

Benjamin: It needs to be something which has a similar theoretical impression and technical expression. The theory presentation should present what I preceive society to be, hopefully what we perceive society to be.

Solange: What do you want to say to your audience? With the work. Do you already have a kind of idea- because it's very broad. Sorry but it's alot and you can't say all the things you want to the audience, of course.

Benjamin: I know, I need to simplify and streamline.

Solange: I think you'll bump into the medium.

Benjamin: I just haven't found it yet.

Solange: I think we can end with that.