User:Themsen/RWRM4-1

• Interview length: 13:28 minutes
• Interviewer: Solange
• Interviewee: Benjamin Antman
• Moderator: Cihad

---

Transcription

• Solange: Again, I'm just gonna pretend that I don't know you and know nothing about your work. Just a

little.

• Solange: And I wanna ask you if you can mak a short general description about what your work is about

• Benjamin: Yeah it's been, eh, it's-it's been uh it's been difficult -eh- I think to define what I do -eh-,

personally as well

• Benjamin: -eh- but I would- I would say that it's tied to my first -uh- introduction to -uh- societies of

control, for example - post script on societies of control...-uh- and it started out as -uh- ... I was

interested in it because it first tied to -uhmm- actually Lefebvres theory of social space -eeuuh- about

how Lefebvre kind of, like, put up a structure of how we conduct ourselves in space; socially, and also

how space becomes what it is according to how we interpret it socially, like, together. We converse. -

uh- So that was, kind of like, the first kinda queue to -uh- like societies of control. And that our space is

controlled by these three social spaces. -uh- that's kind of like what I got from postscript on societies of

control and on Lefebvre's social space -that he created structure and in this kind of like same (tenant?)

-uh- Ledeuze said that we're defining -we're defining our society according to kind of this paradigm of

control- of controlling the space -of making it more livable in a sense by extending the control...-uuh-

So- that would -that would be interesting -I didn't -uh- because I think in Images. I w- I was hard pressed

to, like, find a visual metaphor for it -and -uh- I was- that's kind of like where I got the idea to -uh- the

metaphor, the visual metaphor for a mushroom.-uh- because -eh- specifically mycellium. -uh- Because

what it does is it's like the extensions of (enclosures) spaces -uh- it kind of extends space as -uh- It has

a certain -kind of like- it- it- it keeps -keeps its organism inside itself or it keeps its life inside it's cell

walls- but it grows out nonetheless. -ah- and it's highly -this mycelium -mycellic pattern is highly complex

as well so you have this kind of -like- -uh- you have this kind of analogy between -uh- spaces of control,

or extension of spaces -of control. And all of- and these kind of cell-walls, or these mycelium,-uh- kind

of, coercing -connecting with each other according to how -uh- how it survives -so that's also about

where I was interested in -eh- this societies of control because these structures -I believe- are a sign of

survival. We want to- we have the ability to expand like a web of mycelium and therefore -uh- in order to

survive this kind of like expansion we need to connect to each other.

• Solange: Kay, let's go back (HAHAHA) UUUHMM- so societies of control, that's kind of your base-

your theory base-

• Benjamin: Yes.

• Solange: that you really are inspired by- UMMM- what is a social space for you, then?

• Benjamin: UH- well social space I'd say is a -uh- you can say... is a kind of preee- pre-uh- what do you

call it -uh- ancestor to -uh- to Deleuze's postscripts on spaces of control -uh- what he did was- was he

-uh- what Lefebvre did was he had a -he had a pretty positive approach to it- he wanted to kind of make

us aware of it -uh- in order for us to be able to -uuuh- to -to -uuh- -uh- to control our space- that's what

situationists did as well. They were trying to make injections into space in order to- for us to better

control it instead of the spectacle controlling it. -uuuhm- and so what- what did -what it did here is- I think

that our understanding of social space has- has kind of like -it's been part of our culture since the 1950's

and what it has done is that this theory -has g-has gone into -uh- societies of control where we are

aware of the spaces- we are aware what they do but we're still inside this structure.

• Solange: In a system.

• Benjamin: Yeah- exactly. In a system.

• Solange: Yeah.

• Benjamin: -uh- so it's the basis- the social space is a basis on uh- Deleuze's postscripts on societies of

control.

• Steve: Can you ask "What is the work?"

• Solange: We're gon- We're gonna get there (laugh)

• Steve: What is the work.

• Solange: Now, actually -ok we know your inspiration -I think- and your basis- where you're coming

from. -uh- And even where your concept comes from -and normally you work alot with images and

drawings -aah- now you're gonna do something else with mushrooms. How do- how did you change

that- how did you come at the mushrooms actually.

• Benjamin: -uh- I basically started from my style, my drawing style -for example- because it has a very

organic -uh- approach to it. It- it- kind of fits well into -kind of like- describing these visual metaphores -

uh- of an expanding mycellic society of electronic networks. -uh- So myk- mycellic networks being

electronic networks which i'm trying to make an analogy between-

• Benjamin: uh- sorry what was the question? I'm sorry. (chuckle)

• Solange: No, uh- how do- how did you came up with mushrooms? Because you're-

• Benjamin: Oh yeah.

• Solange: Because you went from drawings and images to something very organic- that's something

physical- uhmm how did you want to develop this.

• Benjamin: Well- it was -it was first taken from my childhood where -uh- we had this kind of like bonding

over mushrooms -uh- my mother and I were picking mushrooms and w- she was teaching me- so we

were kind of connecting over mushrooms. And then when I looked into mycellic networks I was

interested in that these mycellic networks also connect with each other, individually. Things- so going

back to my drawing style. (chuckle)

• Solange: (chuckle) Yeah.

• Benjamin: What I do with my drawing style is I make random shapes -like- connect them- so uhmm- I

w- I was- interested- that was kind of -like- my approach- that's kind of like where I got the idea- my

drawing style is kind of like -uh- mycellic networks- it goes from -or network -it goes from individual

nodes and then I expand upon it-

• Solange: Mhm.

• Benjamin: -and they're made into a shape.
• Solange: Okey, I see the relation. UHMM- (laugh) Well when we talk about -uh- society of control is

actually something organic- not really controlling, so how do you see that. Because a mushroom is not-

you can't control'em- they are just -I mean your drawings are really -you really can control your drawings

-it's not really random I think. You really have to place your pencil or your brush and with the mushroom

it's -it's hard because i- n- it's just so organic and it's nature -do you have control on that?

• Benjamin: That's a really long question.

• Solange: (laugh)

• Benjamin: Uuuh- but -eh just seeing - I kind of -like- see it as an overview of society, I'm not talking

about-uh-

• Solange: So the mushrooms are the society more.

• Benjamin: Mushrooms are the society, exactly. And, though, what we are talking about for example with

our species expanding beyond sustainable ecology is the same thing a, for example, uh- these huge- ok

you have in Scotland you have- you have uh- a mycellic mushroom which is expanding across

twenty.thousand acres- it's one organism; and it's -it's killing all of the nature in ordr to -kind of like-

make way for its own biome -uh-

• Solange: They're surviving.

• Benjamin: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

• Solange: Like it says, we're surviving actually in the society.

• Solange: Where- where does the controlling part comes in.

• Benjamin: Well- the controlling part is more about the containing of the organism- so it- it's about

containing the process of its development. And it's also about this kind- kind of like containment of our

society which is growing kinda beyond its -uh beyond its kinda like- breaching the walls of what we were

originally trying to do. And -what control does -what control society -why the control society has

manifested is between -because we need to kind of like keep together ...-uh- otherwise we will just -uh-

die -die out. So it's kind of like this -this main th- main mentality of society that's also a- also what I saw

with Bruno Latour as well. Nah I don't remember (chuckle)- sorry. Yeah.

• Solange: (chuckle) Okey, well that's more clear now - what you mean and the connection with the text

and theory which you made with the work -UHM- so you really want to work with the mushrooms? Do

already have a kind of image in your head how it looks -looks like? Or- I mean how do you want to

present it? Uh- how do you want to present it to an audience? How do you gonna do that?

• Benjamin: Yeah. I don't really- I don't really have a set kind of image of -that's what I'm struggling with

right now. With- with trying tooo -uuh- find a form for -for example using distributed networks for

example. I could for example use distributed networks. -UH- network computing for kind of like doing

the metaphor for one central computer needs something from all these computers in order to work. -

euh- so that's kind of like -uh- about -going back to -now we're going back to electronic networks and

of course the artifacts(10:55) -eh- as well.

• Solange: Yeah.

• Benjamin: Emm- and that's kind of like what I find interesting as well -like- eh, we need to be together like in a society we need to be together in order for society to work.

• Solange:-work

• Benjamin: Exactly

• Solange: -yeah

• Benjamin: So if we're going for example with electronic networks we- in distributed computing we need all of these computers in order for this simulation to work. And -uh-yeah, it's it's this kind of like civilisation of technology as well through distributed computing- that we're making our computers into -eh- into our- into the model of our society- through distributed- or cloud computing for example

• Solange: (ok)

• Benjamin: Yeah.

• Solange: Uhmm- going back to the question from Steve - what is the work?

• Benjamin: What is the work?

• Solange: What is the work.

• Benjamin: Yeah- what is the work-eh- currently I'm -i'm looking into- I've made some sketches as well which kind of incorporate my organic style -eh- on -eh- on on on mushroom-like structures- on monumental mushroom-like structures -ehmm- but I don't know yet. It's- it's- it's really- it's really -eh something I'll need to work on until the re-assessments.

• Solange: Because you're so clear about what it has to be or what's it about- whats does it looks like?

• Benjamin: Mmm-

• Solange: Is still pretty hard actually

• Benjamin: Yes- definitely

• Solange: It will- it will come

• Benjamin:Yeah

• Solange: Of course (laugh) ehmm but searching the right medium is maybe the- the hardest research almost.

• Benjamin: Yeah definitely.

• Solange: Yeah.

• Benjamin: Because it needs to be something which spans- like- which has the same kind of like- not necessarily theoretical build up but euh technical buildup. The theory behind this should be the same-

• Solange: I know

• Benjamin: ah- what I perceive society to be. -or we perceive society to be.

• Solange: What do you want to say to your audience? With the work. Do you already have a kind of idea- because it's very broad- sorry but it's alot and you can't say all the things you want to the audience, of course, so

• Benjamin: I know

• Benjamin: And -eh- that's- that's also a problem of my- I- I need to simplify.

• Solange: Yeah, focus (laugh)

• Benjamin: Focus exactly! (laugh)

• Solange: But then also you'll bump into the medium- I think.

• Benjamin: Yeah. It's just that I haven't found it yet. But- yeah

• Solange: Yeah- I think we can- end with that. All right.

Edited transcription

• Solange: Again, I'm just gonna pretend that I don't know you and know nothing about your work. Just a

little.

• Solange: And I wanna ask you if you can mak a short general description about what your work is about

• Benjamin: Yeah it's been, eh, it's-it's been uh it's been difficult -eh- I think to define what I do -eh-,

personally as well

• Benjamin: -eh- but I would- I would say that it's tied to my first -uh- introduction to -uh- societies of

control, for example - post script on societies of control...-uh- and it started out as -uh- ... I was

interested in it because it first tied to -uhmm- actually Lefebvres theory of social space -eeuuh- about

how Lefebvre kind of, like, put up a structure of how we conduct ourselves in space; socially, and also

how space becomes what it is according to how we interpret it socially, like, together. We converse. -

uh- So that was, kind of like, the first kinda queue to -uh- like societies of control. And that our space is

controlled by these three social spaces. -uh- that's kind of like what I got from postscript on societies of

control and on Lefebvre's social space -that he created structure and in this kind of like same (tenant?)

-uh- Ledeuze said that we're defining -we're defining our society according to kind of this paradigm of

control- of controlling the space -of making it more livable in a sense by extending the control...-uuh-

So- that would -that would be interesting -I didn't -uh- because I think in Images. I w- I was hard pressed

to, like, find a visual metaphor for it -and -uh- I was- that's kind of like where I got the idea to -uh- the

metaphor, the visual metaphor for a mushroom.-uh- because -eh- specifically mycellium. -uh- Because

what it does is it's like the extensions of (enclosures) spaces -uh- it kind of extends space as -uh- It has

a certain -kind of like- it- it- it keeps -keeps its organism inside itself or it keeps its life inside it's cell

walls- but it grows out nonetheless. -ah- and it's highly -this mycelium -mycellic pattern is highly complex

as well so you have this kind of -like- -uh- you have this kind of analogy between -uh- spaces of control,

or extension of spaces -of control. And all of- and these kind of cell-walls, or these mycelium,-uh- kind

of, coercing -connecting with each other according to how -uh- how it survives -so that's also about

where I was interested in -eh- this societies of control because these structures -I believe- are a sign of

survival. We want to- we have the ability to expand like a web of mycelium and therefore -uh- in order to

survive this kind of like expansion we need to connect to each other.

• Solange: Kay, let's go back (HAHAHA) UUUHMM- so societies of control, that's kind of your base-

your theory base-

• Benjamin: Yes.

• Solange: that you really are inspired by- UMMM- what is a social space for you, then?

• Benjamin: UH- well social space I'd say is a -uh- you can say... is a kind of preee- pre-uh- what do you

call it -uh- ancestor to -uh- to Deleuze's postscripts on spaces of control -uh- what he did was- was he

-uh- what Lefebvre did was he had a -he had a pretty positive approach to it- he wanted to kind of make

us aware of it -uh- in order for us to be able to -uuuh- to -to -uuh- -uh- to control our space- that's what

situationists did as well. They were trying to make injections into space in order to- for us to better

control it instead of the spectacle controlling it. -uuuhm- and so what- what did -what it did here is- I think

that our understanding of social space has- has kind of like -it's been part of our culture since the 1950's

and what it has done is that this theory -has g-has gone into -uh- societies of control where we are

aware of the spaces- we are aware what they do but we're still inside this structure.

• Solange: In a system.

• Benjamin: Yeah- exactly. In a system.

• Solange: Yeah.

• Benjamin: -uh- so it's the basis- the social space is a basis on uh- Deleuze's postscripts on societies of

control.

• Steve: Can you ask "What is the work?"

• Solange: We're gon- We're gonna get there (laugh)

• Steve: What is the work.

• Solange: Now, actually -ok we know your inspiration -I think- and your basis- where you're coming

from. -uh- And even where your concept comes from -and normally you work alot with images and

drawings -aah- now you're gonna do something else with mushrooms. How do- how did you change

that- how did you come at the mushrooms actually.

• Benjamin: -uh- I basically started from my style, my drawing style -for example- because it has a very

organic -uh- approach to it. It- it- kind of fits well into -kind of like- describing these visual metaphores -

uh- of an expanding mycellic society of electronic networks. -uh- So myk- mycellic networks being

electronic networks which i'm trying to make an analogy between-

• Benjamin: uh- sorry what was the question? I'm sorry. (chuckle)

• Solange: No, uh- how do- how did you came up with mushrooms? Because you're-

• Benjamin: Oh yeah.

• Solange: Because you went from drawings and images to something very organic- that's something

physical- uhmm how did you want to develop this.

• Benjamin: Well- it was -it was first taken from my childhood where -uh- we had this kind of like bonding

over mushrooms -uh- my mother and I were picking mushrooms and w- she was teaching me- so we

were kind of connecting over mushrooms. And then when I looked into mycellic networks I was

interested in that these mycellic networks also connect with each other, individually. Things- so going

back to my drawing style. (chuckle)

• Solange: (chuckle) Yeah.

• Benjamin: What I do with my drawing style is I make random shapes -like- connect them- so uhmm- I

w- I was- interested- that was kind of -like- my approach- that's kind of like where I got the idea- my

drawing style is kind of like -uh- mycellic networks- it goes from -or network -it goes from individual

nodes and then I expand upon it-

• Solange: Mhm.

• Benjamin: -and they're made into a shape.
• Solange: Okey, I see the relation. UHMM- (laugh) Well when we talk about -uh- society of control is

actually something organic- not really controlling, so how do you see that. Because a mushroom is not-

you can't control'em- they are just -I mean your drawings are really -you really can control your drawings

-it's not really random I think. You really have to place your pencil or your brush and with the mushroom

it's -it's hard because i- n- it's just so organic and it's nature -do you have control on that?

• Benjamin: That's a really long question.

• Solange: (laugh)

• Benjamin: Uuuh- but -eh just seeing - I kind of -like- see it as an overview of society, I'm not talking

about-uh-

• Solange: So the mushrooms are the society more.

• Benjamin: Mushrooms are the society, exactly. And, though, what we are talking about for example with

our species expanding beyond sustainable ecology is the same thing a, for example, uh- these huge- ok

you have in Scotland you have- you have uh- a mycellic mushroom which is expanding across

twenty.thousand acres- it's one organism; and it's -it's killing all of the nature in ordr to -kind of like-

make way for its own biome -uh-

• Solange: They're surviving.

• Benjamin: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

• Solange: Like it says, we're surviving actually in the society.

• Solange: Where- where does the controlling part comes in.

• Benjamin: Well- the controlling part is more about the containing of the organism- so it- it's about

containing the process of its development. And it's also about this kind- kind of like containment of our

society which is growing kinda beyond its -uh beyond its kinda like- breaching the walls of what we were

originally trying to do. And -what control does -what control society -why the control society has

manifested is between -because we need to kind of like keep together ...-uh- otherwise we will just -uh-

die -die out. So it's kind of like this -this main th- main mentality of society that's also a- also what I saw

with Bruno Latour as well. Nah I don't remember (chuckle)- sorry. Yeah.

• Solange: (chuckle) Okey, well that's more clear now - what you mean and the connection with the text

and theory which you made with the work -UHM- so you really want to work with the mushrooms? Do

already have a kind of image in your head how it looks -looks like? Or- I mean how do you want to

present it? Uh- how do you want to present it to an audience? How do you gonna do that?

• Benjamin: Yeah. I don't really- I don't really have a set kind of image of -that's what I'm struggling with

right now. With- with trying tooo -uuh- find a form for -for example using distributed networks for

example. I could for example use distributed networks. -UH- network computing for kind of like doing

the metaphor for one central computer needs something from all these computers in order to work. -

euh- so that's kind of like -uh- about -going back to -now we're going back to electronic networks and

of course the artifacts(10:55) -eh- as well.

• Solange: Yeah.

• Benjamin: Emm- and that's kind of like what I find interesting as well -like- eh, we need to be together like in a society we need to be together in order for society to work.

• Solange:-work

• Benjamin: Exactly

• Solange: -yeah

• Benjamin: So if we're going for example with electronic networks we- in distributed computing we need all of these computers in order for this simulation to work. And -uh-yeah, it's it's this kind of like civilisation of technology as well through distributed computing- that we're making our computers into -eh- into our- into the model of our society- through distributed- or cloud computing for example

• Solange: (ok)

• Benjamin: Yeah.

• Solange: Uhmm- going back to the question from Steve - what is the work?

• Benjamin: What is the work?

• Solange: What is the work.

• Benjamin: Yeah- what is the work-eh- currently I'm -i'm looking into- I've made some sketches as well which kind of incorporate my organic style -eh- on -eh- on on on mushroom-like structures- on monumental mushroom-like structures -ehmm- but I don't know yet. It's- it's- it's really- it's really -eh something I'll need to work on until the re-assessments.

• Solange: Because you're so clear about what it has to be or what's it about- whats does it looks like?

• Benjamin: Mmm-

• Solange: Is still pretty hard actually

• Benjamin: Yes- definitely

• Solange: It will- it will come

• Benjamin:Yeah

• Solange: Of course (laugh) ehmm but searching the right medium is maybe the- the hardest research almost.

• Benjamin: Yeah definitely.

• Solange: Yeah.

• Benjamin: Because it needs to be something which spans- like- which has the same kind of like- not necessarily theoretical build up but euh technical buildup. The theory behind this should be the same-

• Solange: I know

• Benjamin: ah- what I perceive society to be. -or we perceive society to be.

• Solange: What do you want to say to your audience? With the work. Do you already have a kind of idea- because it's very broad- sorry but it's alot and you can't say all the things you want to the audience, of course, so

• Benjamin: I know

• Benjamin: And -eh- that's- that's also a problem of my- I- I need to simplify.

• Solange: Yeah, focus (laugh)

• Benjamin: Focus exactly! (laugh)

• Solange: But then also you'll bump into the medium- I think.

• Benjamin: Yeah. It's just that I haven't found it yet. But- yeah

• Solange: Yeah- I think we can- end with that. All right.